This is so good, really well-written and supported! I’m not a Catholic but I continued to be humbled by how *well* the Catholic Church teaches the role of women and the function of marriage. Your explanations, for all the very sound citations, are also quite simple. It’s so important to understand that just because this topic can often be discussed in a hyper-trad vs radical feminist false paradigm, the truth is outside of this overly simplistic reduction. As sound Christian truths so often are!
Thank you, Isa! This is such high praise! Yes, it's remarkable how quickly this conversation departs from the realm of basic Christian anthropology and into politics and power dynamics. At the end of the day, it is so far outside those realms that it can be hard to know whether to laugh or cry at some of the caricatures on the internet... and then to remember that the most powerful testimony we can give is our joy! (Still working on that last one heh)
This is fantastic. The late great ZippyCatholic used to say that “submission to authority is voluntary, submission to authority is mandatory. Both/and, not either or”.
He also used to say that authority is RESPONSIBILITY. Women must be subject to husbands, but also--husbands must treat their wives the way Christ treats the church. It’s a two way street. A husband could no more demand unjust submission than a wife could demand unjust “liberty” in the agency sense. But there must be a single authority who gets the last word and final say. That is a heavy responsibility! We men and husbands should tremble at the eternal consequences of that authority. A bad husband could sanctify his wife (in her patient endurance) while simultaneously condemning himself (in his sinful negligence).
But the two being part of a whole makes it all make sense, if we take it seriously. Feminists want women to be separate, distinct. But husband and wife are ONE. There is no room to elevate one because it can only come at the expense of the other.
Top notch article. Relationship with authority is a hobbyhorse of mine. Have you or your husband heard of Zippy Catholic before? One or both of you might be amenable to my wordpress blog where I speak a little more freely 👀 let me know if you are interested and I will email you some choice links.
Scoot, have you read Gagliardi's Truth is a Synthesis? It's an excellent exposition of the "Et et" (both-and) principle as it plays out in every facet of theology.
Also, have you read Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla (St. John Paul II) because I completely agree that to have authority is to have responsibility but also that to love something is to be responsible for it in a way but not necessarily as an authority. We're responsible for our country and our church but not as authorities in it. Thus we love those two entities by taking responsibility for their care. It's very irksome that young men, especially those interested in tradition often seem to shy away from their responsibility to pray and work (ora et labora) for God instead of posting angry memes online. The irony is not lost on me that I'm posting a frustration online as I say that.
"We men and husbands should tremble at the eternal consequences of that authority." Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
"972 A fundamental rule for good management is to give responsibility to others without this becoming for you a way of seeking anonymity or comfort. I repeat, delegate responsibility and ask each person to give an account of how his job is going, so that you can “render an account” to God; and to souls, if necessary." The Furrow by St. Josemaria Escriva
Dude, you said it. Care to send your wordpress and Zippy Catholic suggestions?
Sorry, to answer your other questions--No I am fairly poorly read I am afraid. I think I read bits of Edward Sri's abridgement of Love and Responsibility as part of marriage prep--definitely eye opening.
Truth is a Synthesis sounds interesting! Curious if that predates or postdates Hegelian Synthesis? Or if those are talking about two different things!
My bad, I never mean to drop book bombs on people, but it's always nice to have books that draw out the deeper meanings of our conversations.
I think Gagliardi wouldn't ascribe to Hegelian Synthesis. Instead, I anticipate he would think of his project as an exposition of the foundations of Christianity especially back the Councils of Nicenea and Constantinople where God's unity and trinity were finally determined as having been what the Apostles taught as truth. If you're ever interested, it's a DOOZY of a read, but I think well worth it.
Wonderful, thank you for the recommendation! I never turn away book recommendations, but I probably absorb more knowledge through conversations with well read people than I do by direct reading these days!
My blog--there's a lot, feel free to explore around. Recent articles seem to approach some of these ideas, you may enjoy them: https://timesdispatch.wordpress.com/
This is fantastic!! We attend a TLM and had the scary marriage prep for our convalidation. It was a welcome relief to hear how a marriage should be rightly ordered. Although we’re still working on it and it is a learning process for sure, it is much better than when we were civilly married and drowning in all the wrongly ordered chaos.
I so appreciate this article. I am definitely having an incredibly difficult time “starting first”. This gave me so much to think about. Thank you.
Linda, I’m so glad you enjoyed it! I’m also struggling with “going first” and choosing joy even when things don’t look exactly the way *I* want them to.
One more comment (sorry) now that i finished reading this article.
This comment has two thoughts.
1- marriage, as with any vocation, is a “giving away of yourself” to some higher purpose. In marriage, a man and woman give themselves mind, body, and soul, to their spouses. This is scary--it gives someone else ALL OF YOU and so the power to destroy you. But it is required. Hold nothing back. This is not discussed in marriage prep because it is scary.
2- for some reason peoples default assumption is that marriage is the default vocation. This might sound controversial, but a blogger i read elsewhere once said that men and women who have control of their sexual appetites ought to seriously consider taking the cloth. Marriage provides a holy and productive outlet for that, and it is better for someone who struggles with controlling that appetite to struggle in the context of a marriage where its expression results in children. Holy orders, etc, are extremely valuable and struggle in other ways. The vocation to the priesthood or monastic life includes all of the struggles and challenges expressed in this article, but oriented around a different context.
Good priests and monastics are raised in good families. Good priests and monastics are AS VALUABLE to the world as a good marriage and a good family. More emphasis should be put on this point, only because the lack of emphasis in recent years has led to an overall decline in vocations.
Thats it! Sorry for all the comments. As you were!
"This is not discussed in marriage prep because it is scary" is such a mood. One of these days I'm going to write a marriage prep book. Not because I want to or because I feel remotely qualified, but just because so many of the options out there are terrible. Our had some good content and then some truly laughable (cringy?) sections as well.
And yes, on the second point, I'm totally with you! I'm (obviously) all for marriage and think it's a beautiful vocation, but I do wish we had more awareness and support for discerning with (dating?) different religious orders without so much of the hubbub that makes discerning out feel like a failure. No one throws you a huge party when you go on a first day, and no one judges you when you break up with someone who wasn't a good fit for you. I can't imagine that we benefit anyone or increase monastic vocations with all the (well-meaning and genuinely excited) pressure we put on young men and women who discern the religious life.
I love your comment on good priests and religious being formed in good families - JPII called the family the "seedbed of vocations" and it's so important that we raise our children with the knowledge that virtue will serve them well regardless of which vocation they choose, and as much as we can to expose them to joyful sisters, brothers, and priests who can witness to the beauty and challenge of the religious life - we all grow up in a family, but few of us have the chance to know the abbey or the monastery as intimately before we pursue a vocation.
I think the best marriage prep should be scary. It should make people really tremble--and if they can face that and say "you know what lets do this anyway," they've got the right attitude for marriage. Not that it should dissuade couples from marrying, but rather it should interrupt the butterflys for just a moment. So much of marriage prep is "LOVE! Love is wonderful! We are happy you are in love. How can we help you get married?"
I was asked by my priest to attend a vocation dinner, where young men from around the diocese got to ask questions from a BUNCH of priests and the bishop (who moderated the event). The priests got to talk about what their life is really like, and how they knew that they were destined for the priesthood. That was an incredible experience--helped me to take one step towards it and realize it wasn't for me. Someone said, I forget who, that no man can really be content in life until he has tackled the question of the priesthood. Good priests should want families, too! But their family is bigger than yours or mine will ever be.
Anyway, I hope every diocese has something like that, but it's very valuable. Just being around, being able to talk to them. Seeing that they are normal, fallible people and that it is an important lifes-work, similar to marriage, is good.
Good points about the pressure of discernment--it definitely should be dialed down and dialed up. Dialed down--it's a normal thing you can choose to give your life to. Dialed up--you are in fact giving your life to something.
This is so good, really well-written and supported! I’m not a Catholic but I continued to be humbled by how *well* the Catholic Church teaches the role of women and the function of marriage. Your explanations, for all the very sound citations, are also quite simple. It’s so important to understand that just because this topic can often be discussed in a hyper-trad vs radical feminist false paradigm, the truth is outside of this overly simplistic reduction. As sound Christian truths so often are!
Thank you, Isa! This is such high praise! Yes, it's remarkable how quickly this conversation departs from the realm of basic Christian anthropology and into politics and power dynamics. At the end of the day, it is so far outside those realms that it can be hard to know whether to laugh or cry at some of the caricatures on the internet... and then to remember that the most powerful testimony we can give is our joy! (Still working on that last one heh)
This is fantastic. The late great ZippyCatholic used to say that “submission to authority is voluntary, submission to authority is mandatory. Both/and, not either or”.
He also used to say that authority is RESPONSIBILITY. Women must be subject to husbands, but also--husbands must treat their wives the way Christ treats the church. It’s a two way street. A husband could no more demand unjust submission than a wife could demand unjust “liberty” in the agency sense. But there must be a single authority who gets the last word and final say. That is a heavy responsibility! We men and husbands should tremble at the eternal consequences of that authority. A bad husband could sanctify his wife (in her patient endurance) while simultaneously condemning himself (in his sinful negligence).
But the two being part of a whole makes it all make sense, if we take it seriously. Feminists want women to be separate, distinct. But husband and wife are ONE. There is no room to elevate one because it can only come at the expense of the other.
Top notch article. Relationship with authority is a hobbyhorse of mine. Have you or your husband heard of Zippy Catholic before? One or both of you might be amenable to my wordpress blog where I speak a little more freely 👀 let me know if you are interested and I will email you some choice links.
Thank you for this, God bless you!
Scoot, have you read Gagliardi's Truth is a Synthesis? It's an excellent exposition of the "Et et" (both-and) principle as it plays out in every facet of theology.
Also, have you read Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla (St. John Paul II) because I completely agree that to have authority is to have responsibility but also that to love something is to be responsible for it in a way but not necessarily as an authority. We're responsible for our country and our church but not as authorities in it. Thus we love those two entities by taking responsibility for their care. It's very irksome that young men, especially those interested in tradition often seem to shy away from their responsibility to pray and work (ora et labora) for God instead of posting angry memes online. The irony is not lost on me that I'm posting a frustration online as I say that.
"We men and husbands should tremble at the eternal consequences of that authority." Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
"972 A fundamental rule for good management is to give responsibility to others without this becoming for you a way of seeking anonymity or comfort. I repeat, delegate responsibility and ask each person to give an account of how his job is going, so that you can “render an account” to God; and to souls, if necessary." The Furrow by St. Josemaria Escriva
Dude, you said it. Care to send your wordpress and Zippy Catholic suggestions?
Sorry, to answer your other questions--No I am fairly poorly read I am afraid. I think I read bits of Edward Sri's abridgement of Love and Responsibility as part of marriage prep--definitely eye opening.
Truth is a Synthesis sounds interesting! Curious if that predates or postdates Hegelian Synthesis? Or if those are talking about two different things!
My bad, I never mean to drop book bombs on people, but it's always nice to have books that draw out the deeper meanings of our conversations.
I think Gagliardi wouldn't ascribe to Hegelian Synthesis. Instead, I anticipate he would think of his project as an exposition of the foundations of Christianity especially back the Councils of Nicenea and Constantinople where God's unity and trinity were finally determined as having been what the Apostles taught as truth. If you're ever interested, it's a DOOZY of a read, but I think well worth it.
https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Synthesis-Catholic-Dogmatic-Theology/dp/1645850447
Wonderful, thank you for the recommendation! I never turn away book recommendations, but I probably absorb more knowledge through conversations with well read people than I do by direct reading these days!
My blog--there's a lot, feel free to explore around. Recent articles seem to approach some of these ideas, you may enjoy them: https://timesdispatch.wordpress.com/
Here's the Zippy article I quoted. He's a little more hard hitting, and I started my blog basically to study his ideas. It's blown my mind. He died in 2018, pray for the repose of his soul! I only learned he existed when people were posting Eulogies around the blogosphere. https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2013/08/20/submission-to-authority-is-voluntary-submission-to-authority-is-mandatory/
Thank you! I look forward to these delightful reads.
This is fantastic!! We attend a TLM and had the scary marriage prep for our convalidation. It was a welcome relief to hear how a marriage should be rightly ordered. Although we’re still working on it and it is a learning process for sure, it is much better than when we were civilly married and drowning in all the wrongly ordered chaos.
I so appreciate this article. I am definitely having an incredibly difficult time “starting first”. This gave me so much to think about. Thank you.
Linda, I’m so glad you enjoyed it! I’m also struggling with “going first” and choosing joy even when things don’t look exactly the way *I* want them to.
One more comment (sorry) now that i finished reading this article.
This comment has two thoughts.
1- marriage, as with any vocation, is a “giving away of yourself” to some higher purpose. In marriage, a man and woman give themselves mind, body, and soul, to their spouses. This is scary--it gives someone else ALL OF YOU and so the power to destroy you. But it is required. Hold nothing back. This is not discussed in marriage prep because it is scary.
2- for some reason peoples default assumption is that marriage is the default vocation. This might sound controversial, but a blogger i read elsewhere once said that men and women who have control of their sexual appetites ought to seriously consider taking the cloth. Marriage provides a holy and productive outlet for that, and it is better for someone who struggles with controlling that appetite to struggle in the context of a marriage where its expression results in children. Holy orders, etc, are extremely valuable and struggle in other ways. The vocation to the priesthood or monastic life includes all of the struggles and challenges expressed in this article, but oriented around a different context.
Good priests and monastics are raised in good families. Good priests and monastics are AS VALUABLE to the world as a good marriage and a good family. More emphasis should be put on this point, only because the lack of emphasis in recent years has led to an overall decline in vocations.
Thats it! Sorry for all the comments. As you were!
"This is not discussed in marriage prep because it is scary" is such a mood. One of these days I'm going to write a marriage prep book. Not because I want to or because I feel remotely qualified, but just because so many of the options out there are terrible. Our had some good content and then some truly laughable (cringy?) sections as well.
And yes, on the second point, I'm totally with you! I'm (obviously) all for marriage and think it's a beautiful vocation, but I do wish we had more awareness and support for discerning with (dating?) different religious orders without so much of the hubbub that makes discerning out feel like a failure. No one throws you a huge party when you go on a first day, and no one judges you when you break up with someone who wasn't a good fit for you. I can't imagine that we benefit anyone or increase monastic vocations with all the (well-meaning and genuinely excited) pressure we put on young men and women who discern the religious life.
I love your comment on good priests and religious being formed in good families - JPII called the family the "seedbed of vocations" and it's so important that we raise our children with the knowledge that virtue will serve them well regardless of which vocation they choose, and as much as we can to expose them to joyful sisters, brothers, and priests who can witness to the beauty and challenge of the religious life - we all grow up in a family, but few of us have the chance to know the abbey or the monastery as intimately before we pursue a vocation.
I think the best marriage prep should be scary. It should make people really tremble--and if they can face that and say "you know what lets do this anyway," they've got the right attitude for marriage. Not that it should dissuade couples from marrying, but rather it should interrupt the butterflys for just a moment. So much of marriage prep is "LOVE! Love is wonderful! We are happy you are in love. How can we help you get married?"
I was asked by my priest to attend a vocation dinner, where young men from around the diocese got to ask questions from a BUNCH of priests and the bishop (who moderated the event). The priests got to talk about what their life is really like, and how they knew that they were destined for the priesthood. That was an incredible experience--helped me to take one step towards it and realize it wasn't for me. Someone said, I forget who, that no man can really be content in life until he has tackled the question of the priesthood. Good priests should want families, too! But their family is bigger than yours or mine will ever be.
Anyway, I hope every diocese has something like that, but it's very valuable. Just being around, being able to talk to them. Seeing that they are normal, fallible people and that it is an important lifes-work, similar to marriage, is good.
Good points about the pressure of discernment--it definitely should be dialed down and dialed up. Dialed down--it's a normal thing you can choose to give your life to. Dialed up--you are in fact giving your life to something.
Agreed on all counts. No vocation is trivial - they'll all change you for the better if you let them!
Really enjoyed this; thank you!